Did Tian Lei kill 400 thousand people?

Discussion on Historical Events "It is not credible that Zhao Si was killed by the Battle of Changping"

The battle of Changping is one of the major battles in the history of the Warring States, and everyone must know it better. It was "an armchair strategist" who led to Zhao's fiasco, and Zhao became a prisoner of Qin Jun. According to historical records, Bai Qi, a famous minister of Qin at that time, actually killed 400,000 Zhao Junkeng when dealing with these prisoners. I think this statement is not credible.

1, according to historical data, the total population of each country at that time was just over 20 million. Although Zhao is one of the Seven Heroes, after all, his national strength is limited and his population is about 2 million at most. If 400,000 people died in a world war, wouldn't it be a national extinction? And killed 400,000 people, there should be troops guarding Zhao and soldiers who died. Then, half of Zhao's people are going to war. Who will do the construction and production? "Everyone is a soldier" probably doesn't make sense. 2. Killing 400,000 people is like dreaming. Killing so many people is not easy! It is still possible for Zhao to surrender, but if they are all killed, 400 thousand people will do nothing? So many people died in a pit, and there is not enough archaeological proof yet. Although hundreds of bones have been found in the former site of the so-called Changping War in recent years, belonging to Lu Yong No.1 pit, can hundreds of bones be equivalent to 400,000 giants? From this point of view, the historical record that Zhao Jun resisted killing 400,000 troops is probably hearsay of historians, which is not credible.

However, the history book later recorded a piece of material, which made this topic quite dramatic. It is said that the king of Qin learned that the "400,000" Zhao army was raped and killed, and he also felt that there were too many failures, and God forbid. He sent his sword to Tian Lei to commit suicide to thank the world. Tian Lei couldn't figure it out at first, but later he thought it was really against heaven and had to commit suicide. This material is true, but it can only prove one thing at most: at that time, many Zhao prisoners were killed, and Bai Qi paid the price for it. But in any case, it can't prove the astronomical figure of killing 400 thousand.

The answer is as follows:

Reply 1

According to historical data, the population of the Warring States is 20 million? First of all, what you are referring to is by no means historical data, because there is no historical data that clearly describes the total population of the Warring States at that time. What you are referring to is only the population figure calculated by later historians.

Then how did this population figure come from? As far as I know, the total population of 20 million in the Warring States Period was calculated by the historian Mr. Fan Wenlan according to the number of troops recorded in historical materials and then according to the military service systems of various countries at that time. He calculated it according to Sue's analysis of Xiang Guojun's figures (* * * more than five million) and the ratio of four soldiers to one soldier.

Do you know all the stories about castles in the air? After building two floors, I said that the first floor was too ugly. In fact, I only need the second floor, so I demolished the first floor. Landlord, you use the calculated results to deny the original data necessary for calculation. This kind of thing is like building the second floor and tearing down the first floor.

There are many reasons for the battle of Changping, including a large number of skull pits excavated in the late Tang and Song Dynasties, which are recorded in many tombstones and local county annals written by later generations. Even now, when you go to that place, local farmers will tell you directly that there are few skeletons in the pit, and it is common for local people to dig up human bones deeper.

There is a basic common sense in historical research, that is, if there are different opinions, then compare them and adopt the more credible one logically, or put the two opinions together for reference. If there is only a single orphan digital record, it can only be accepted temporarily until new evidence is found, and then the original orphan record can be doubted and compared.

In the study of history, we must never "take it for granted" to solve the mystery of history, because in that case, it is really unfounded speculation, which is the taboo of historical research.

Reply 2

Zhao did not put 400,000 people in Changping. Lian Po led 200,000 people into Changping at first, and the rest of the troops were invested in the next three years. So is Qin Jun.

Why do both sides try their best to continue to invest in troops? It is because Changping is so important. From the traffic point of view, Changping is a strategic barrier between Shangdang and Handan. At that time, Qin had occupied Hedong area, and later captured the wild king. There are only two ways to attack Zhao. Go all the way to Yicheng, Qinshui and Gaoping West Road, and go all the way to Jincheng Nanwanzicheng and Tianjingguan South Road. But no matter which way you take, you can't avoid Changping. As long as the Zhao army sticks to Changping, it can't seize Shangdang and can't get close to Handan. Geographically, the ownership of Changping will determine Zhao's fate.

Therefore, in the three years of confrontation, both sides kept sending more troops, scrambling to invest a lot of troops to ensure the victory of this war, and finally formed a big meat grinder.

At that time, because there were no professional soldiers, it was a conscription system, so there were as many soldiers as there were farmers, and 400 thousand soldiers were normal. In fact, in order to ensure the formation of a big encirclement, the king of Qin later sent all men over 0/5 years old in Hanoi/Kloc to serve as soldiers. In the same way, this war is so important to Zhao, and in order to ensure the victory of the three-year confrontation period, Zhao's madness in conscription can never be under Qin.

So Qin Jun won the First World War and killed all the brave men in Zhao Guoqing.

Later, Leitian said that Handan could not attack, because Zhao could not transfer all the other border soldiers to the Changping front, but the capital was different. Once Handan is threatened, Wang Zhaohui will desperately transfer all the soldiers from all sides back to defend the capital, which can never be simply understood as re-conscription.

Reply 3

After all, three years of confrontation seems very dull. In fact, these three years are the most crucial.

At the beginning, both sides invested more than 200,000 troops, but as time went on, no one wanted to fail and rushed to invest more troops.

The more soldiers invest, the faster the national grain reserves will be consumed, which is a great test for national strength. The Qin-Zhao supply line is not short, and the midway loss is great. At that time, civilian workers were used to transport food, and civilian workers also had to eat. Therefore, the longer the supply line, the greater the intermediate consumption. There is a saying that thousands of miles of fighting, the rear reserves 20 meters, and only one is transported to the front. Therefore, Sun Tzu advocated that food should be given to the enemy, and eating one cup of rice from the enemy is equivalent to eating two cups of rice from yourself.

After three years of confrontation, almost at the same speed, the continuous increase of troops and the consumption of grain and grass have left Qin and Zhao in a quagmire. And the more so, the more you can't give up, because once all your previous efforts are in vain, there will be only losses and no gains.

Therefore, such a long-term confrontation has also made this battle more and more crucial: if Qin is defeated, even if Qin is spared from collapse, the national strength accumulated for a long time will be destroyed, and Zhao is even more fatal. Once defeated, it will give Qin a strategic position to kick its lair at any time, just like national subjugation. In the accumulation of confrontation, Changping finally evolved into a huge strategic decisive battle that decided the future direction of the Warring States.

In this case, both sides are trying to get rid of this bad vicious circle.

The reason why Zhao Wang used Zhao Kuo, a military commander who advocated brave and sharp tactics, was precisely because he advocated a quick decision, which was the idea of Zhao Wang trying to break the deadlock and get the country out of trouble.

Qin, on the other hand, used double-faced espionage and other espionage means to urge Zhao to take the initiative to attack and make it easier to attack the enemy on the battlefield, also in order to break the deadlock of this vicious circle.

In the end, the result of the battle of Changping proved who had the better idea.

The answer is as follows:

Not much textual research, only that the cause of this war is to join the party. Shangdang originally belonged to Korea, which can be said to be the gateway to the west of Sanjin. Qin attacked Korea, but Korea couldn't keep it. Seeing that Sanjin is about to open its doors wide. This is quite dangerous for the three countries. Fortunately, Han's Shangdang satrap turned to Zhao. This led to the struggle between Qin and Zhao for party membership. So in general, Qin is attacking, Zhao is defending, Qin joins the party to open the way, Zhao joins the party is a top priority, and Zhao joins the party is more important. If the first world war was a robbery from the beginning, then Zhao was more important than Qin, and even for Qin, it was a carefree robbery.

However, after three years' delay, the two sides increased their troops one after another. In the end, although Zhao Zhongqin was a light robbery (after all, Qin held the initiative to end the robbery), no one could afford to lose, and it was a big robbery in the world. If Qin doesn't give up, he can't relax, so he only consumes energy. Because Zhao is passive, he is more anxious. The more anxious he is, the easier it is for him to take risks for change. If Guo Gong doesn't attack, other generals, even old Lian Po, can't stand the pressure of the imperial court sooner or later, and will attack eventually.

Qin turned a carefree robbery into a great robbery on earth, which seemed to make him desperate. In fact, it is still a strategic initiative, because it still has the initiative to eliminate robbery, only dragging the most dangerous enemy into the overall war. As far as Zhao is concerned, this passive situation cannot be eliminated at the beginning of the campaign, and it is difficult to get rid of it by one's own efforts afterwards. But at that time, Qin and Zhao were not the only two families in the world. At this time, we should consider the art of cutting the cross. If the third party and the fourth party can be brought in, there are still opportunities and ways to eliminate this invincible internal competition. However, Zhao's leadership seems to have made little effort in this regard.

Reply 1

Although Zhao is one of the Seven Heroes, after all, his national strength is limited, and his population is about 2 million at most. If 400,000 people died in World War I,

He is based on Sue's analysis of Xiang Guojun's figures (* * * more than five million), and then calculated according to the ratio of four people to one soldier.

These two sentences can be compared.

400 thousand is not necessarily the exact number, but it should be about the same. Qin's troops in Changping were slightly larger than Zhao's, not several times larger, and Qin had recruited all the men (16 to 60 years old) and some women, so according to the situation that the strength of Qin and Zhao was not much different at that time, it was able to take out 400 thousand people, but at the same time it almost occupied Ding Zhuang's time. This is a decisive battle, Qin Sheng can conquer the world, and Zhao Sheng can destroy Qin.

Reply 2

Zhao Zhi was defeated in Changping, on the one hand, and on the other hand, in intelligence. As far as Shangdang is concerned, Qinyuan is close to Zhao, especially when Qin people go to the war zone, they have to pass through the Wei-Chu border and set up a division between the two countries. How can Qin An be invincible? However, Wei and Chu did not scratch Qin Shihuang. Why? It was not Qin who did well, but Zhao who did badly. Eastern countries are afraid of Zhao or not too afraid of Qin, but they hate Zhao, but they don't hate Qin. At that time, Zhao's international reputation could probably be compared with the so-called East Emperor. As for Changping's Zhao Kuo, what he lost was not strategy or tactics, but intelligence. He also knows that no one can afford to delay, so he wants to do it quickly. The goal of quick victory is Wang Bi. If he knew that Wu Anjun was the commander in chief of the front line, would he dare to win quickly? Do you dare to do this for a quick victory? Nobody knows. I have always insisted that Zhao Kuo must be a capable general, but not necessarily an armchair strategist. When he met Tian Lei, his old Lian Po would be defeated if he was a little negligent (not to mention Tian Lei, wasn't Lian Po forced to retreat because he was defeated under Wang Bi? ), how is young Zhao Kuo?

Reply, from the point of view of eating.

Bury 400,000 people alive, at least more than 400,000 people.

The absolute advantage defined by the US military seems to be 6: 1. I can't remember clearly. I saw it many years ago

How about we say 3: 1?

That is, there are 6.5438+0.6 million people on both sides of the war.

How many meters does a soldier consume in a day? Miscellaneous grains? Grassroots? Leather shoes? 500 grams? 1000g? Let's count it as 500 grams.

0.5kg x 1600000 =800000kg

Consume 800,000 Jin of grain a day,

What is the yield per mu? How much arable land is there? Will others eat it? What is the ratio of non-combatants to combatants?

What's in the warehouse?

Whether it can cope with the daily flow of 800,000 Jin, if it is on the day of harvest, it is theoretically possible, although logically absurd.

On the whole, do you believe that 400,000 people were buried alive?

A careless word.

If ignorant people have a little power, can they-can they make history? Draw a conclusion? Definition? Ha ha.

Li Ao once said that what "monopolizes academics, monopolizes academics, monopolizes what they define". Why? Because the platform is managed by her husband.

Interesting. interesting.

You mean, this is a big number, so you can't reach it, right?

Well, since you like to argue from numbers, let's talk about numbers.

First of all, "burying 400,000 people alive" itself is wrong. It can be seen that you haven't seen the relevant archaeological papers at all, so you can bury them alive:

A large number of bones unearthed from the corpse pit have obvious marks of swords. The archaeological result is that it is not buried alive, but that Qin Jun slaughtered Zhao with his bare hands on the spot after collecting the weapons that surrendered to Zhao, and pushed his body to the low-lying place formed by the terrain and buried it hastily.

Tai Shigong sometimes dozes off. He didn't go to the battlefield in person, and he didn't know how the Qin people were buried.

Let me give you another simple example. When the Mongols beat the Arabs, a Mongolian soldier entered an Arab village, first ordered nearly 100 men, women and children in the village to bind each other and then killed them one by one. Mongolian army broke the city of Hualamozi, with 65,438+200,000 residents and nearly 200,000 Mongolian soldiers. At that time, every Mongolian soldier gave four or five prisoners and killed them all at one command.

What is absolute advantage 6: 1? Can slaughter be compared with the proportion of soldiers fighting?

Second, the number of grains. You think history is fiction? Ok, let's not talk about history books, but talk about things on Qin bamboo slips. At that time, we also spoke with archaeological conclusions. Are you satisfied with this?

You don't need to do more calculations, so I can tell you the number of grains.

In the middle and late Warring States period, the yield per mu was two stones and Qin Shi was 60.7 kilograms. According to the fields of Qin State during the Changping War, excluding 2.8 million mu of Guanzhong after the completion of Zheng Guoqu and 3 million mu built in Dujiangyan, Sichuan, the annual output was 6 million Qin Shi, which was 364.2 million kilograms, equivalent to 728.4 million kilograms.

Let's calculate it according to your 1 day consumption of 800,000 Jin. This is only the annual grain output of the fields near Dujiangyan in Qin State, which is enough to feed 800,000 soldiers for 9 10.5 days. Besides, in the battle of Changping, 800,000 people were not just Qin Jun, and Qin had a huge grain reserve for several years.

You have no idea about the grain output during the Warring States period, so you rashly denied the possibility that the grain output during the Warring States period could supply a huge army. What is this?

"Ignorant people can make history as long as they have some rights? Draw a conclusion? Definition? Haha "

What you said is very reasonable. But because of my poor knowledge, it is a common problem of all mankind to blindly deny what is beyond my imagination, but it can't be said that it is your personal problem.