Dialogue between Ni Yunhua and Bai Rui: Three Elements of Organizational Diagnosis

How to apply the three elements of tissue diagnosis? On June 5th, Chuangshang College invited Mr. Ni Yunhua, an expert in business warfare, to talk with Mr. Bai Rui, an expert in organizational development and personnel training, and share three elements of organizational diagnosis.

Below, please enjoy:

Ni Yunhua: Many friends don't necessarily know much about organizational development. Let's ask Mr. Bai Rui to popularize it first.

Bai Rui: Many people think this is a post when they listen to OD, and this view is correct. Others find that there is a set of logic behind OD, which we call organizational development. This is a new school, a new concept, and some ideas to solve problems.

We believe that OD is an independent concept of intervention. For the purpose of organizational effectiveness, combine strategic thinking, process, skills and political intervention skills.

What is organizational effectiveness? There are two levels: one is efficiency and effect; Second, the degree to which the organization expects to complete. Our OD, as the OD of the post, is mainly aimed at the efficiency, effectiveness and expected completion of the organization. We have strategic thinking, processes and politics.

There are many levels of OD, including individual intervention, organizational intervention and overall intervention. Give an actual case: an employee is late, how to think about this problem with OD thinking?

I have been punished for being late before, and I have been punished several times. For example, shopping and milk tea are a little more complicated if you use OD thinking. Individual intervention is mainly some discipline and counseling, and systematic intervention is more complicated. You need to build a model, diagnose and see several factors that affect your lateness, then intervene and give feedback at last. The scene of OD application is not personal lateness, but a bigger scene such as system transformation and sales department promotion.

Teacher Ni: The OD mentioned by Teacher Bai just now is to exert certain actions on the organization, so as to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the organization and help the company achieve its strategy and goals. We can see that many companies are hard to find and have high demands on people when recruiting talents for organizational development.

Secondly, the salary is higher than the general HR, which can reflect the value and status of this position in the company. In your practice, what building is equipped with OD?

Bai Rui: The current position has not been completely determined. This is a new post, and where it is equipped is controversial. Now the direction is:

1, human resources

Under HRD, there are OD managers and some OD directors, all under the condition of human resources. From all functions and roles, it is the human resources department and the project department, which are closely related to organizational development.

2. Remove the OD separately.

As the organization development department, report to CEO or general manager. Because reporting directly to the general manager, the level is different, and the salary of one million is not a problem.

3, linear group, CEO assistant, secretary position

The position where the organization spends money, as the compensation performance Committee, is a change Committee composed of one or two people and two or three people. We have seen this structure in Haier, and there are also real estate enterprises in Shenzhen. The salary is very high, and several young people form a team, which is equivalent to the concept of military departments in the past.

4. Three pillars

Standardized HRBP team, COE team and CMD are a group of people who make plans behind the company. This mechanism corresponds to the system of large enterprises and large business divisions.

5. Run OD, run OD

Many people say this is a big HRBP. I looked at it, and it was still different in many cases. Many big internet companies, too busy to do business, sent OD to the following places. This has happened before.

When looking for a job, arrange an order. The first is to report to the CEO, which is the highest salary, followed by the COE team, and then the change team. Be sure to report to the president where the salary is high, because your level is there and your salary will not be very low.

The salary of human resources director is a magical state, some are particularly high, and some are particularly low. The last situation needs to be discussed, which is linked to the company's business progress, mainly based on the company's payment. There may be fewer people doing education, even this.

When looking for a job, ask one more question, who do you report to, and who do you report to, and you will know your Jianghu status. There are 300,000-1 10,000 yuan. This job does not need to ask about the output and responsibilities of the post, because it changes a lot, mainly to whom to report.

Ni Yunhua: In terms of salary, OD is a very hot position now, and there is a great possibility that you can talk about very high salary. This position is very concerned by the CEO. The level of this post is very high, and Meituan, ByteDance and Ali are all equipped with such posts.

Whether you are studying OD or have entered this field, it is the right choice to follow Mr. Bai. I have known Mr. Bai for a long time. Mr. Bai is an expert in OD theory and practice.

Bai Rui: OD has a high position. In Ali, it's P8 and P9. Only in this case can resources be mobilized. If you are not in this position, you can't handle many things. Many organizations regard this position as a very important position and invite external cooperation.

Those who do OD will have an output, including the business strategy and management methods of the enterprise. To do OD, you can extract the overall situation and present situation of the enterprise, either in a book or in a theoretical system, and export it to the same industry, so this position has been widely spread. People who do related management, OD direction is still good, you can fight for it.

Ni Yunhua: We see that as organizational development, some structures are permanent and some are change committees. So what is the daily work content of an OD post? What problems are mainly solved?

Bai Rui: Many HR people will be curious to ask, what do you mainly do with so much money every day? We are not the content of routine functions and responsibilities. We don't have a fixed function, unlike accountants who keep accounts when tickets arrive, and unlike human resources recruitment positions who recruit when needs arise.

Our work often begins with organizational diagnosis, together with financial settlement and financial statements. If we know what is good and what is bad in this enterprise, we will continue to keep it good, optimize it if it is bad, and then we will set up a project.

For example, cultural promotion projects will do time nodes, many of which are Gantt charts, especially in the form of operation centers, product centers and project departments.

There will be many projects in OD's daily work, interspersed with each other. For example, I am the project manager of this project, and I will supervise this project, but at the same time, I may be a member of other projects.

OD often wears many hats, and many Gantt charts have you, so the work is saturated and tired. Many times, we really forget and don't know how far the project has progressed, so we need time management.

Cultural projects may take one year, chambers of commerce and industry will end in one afternoon, and craft projects may take three years. It's normal to make a system, with long and short, which is very troublesome. Many projects add up, and they are often too busy. This is called project overload.

I counted, at the busiest time, I had 26 projects in my hand. We usually study product centers and operation centers, and there are 6-7 similar projects. They are really busy and have a lot of needs, and they all want you to solve them.

This feeling is understandable in other departments, because the company has this person who can solve your problem, then you definitely need him to help you solve your problem, and then you can make money more efficiently. We mainly solve these problems through evaluation and project establishment, basically in the form of projects.

Ni Yunhua: What we are sharing with you today is the content and our opinions in the field of organizational development. Miss Bai has done many projects. On the whole, we did a good job. What is the general process?

Bai Rui: Everything starts with diagnosis. No one assigned us too many tasks. The top management won't assign tasks, basically it means upgrading my culture. We mainly look for it ourselves, so we usually have a diagnosis.

Diagnosis is generally a questionnaire diagnosis. Send out questionnaires and get feedback. Sometimes people say, no, our company's delivery ability is particularly weak and our supply chain is particularly long. We think this is a big problem, and we will start the project through diagnosis. We went to Japan for eight months, which is a very long project, and it was done in detail. Some companies will hold some chambers of commerce and industry to reflect problems and find contradictions.

We call it post-diagnosis intervention. The first stage is diagnosis, and the second stage is intervention, just like the process of going to the hospital. If you are sick, go to the hospital, have a test, blood routine or electrocardiogram first, check your problem, and then write a diagnosis sheet to tell you what the problem is. After that, prescribe, such as drug intervention, two tablets a day, one tablet in the morning and one tablet in the evening, 14 days.

The most powerful thing is surgery, such as organizational design, cultural innovation and company acquisition. These are surgical projects. There is also a stage behind the diagnosis called feedback, which is the same as the follow-up hospital. Just check it again. The young one is treated with drugs.

The whole link is divided into three parts. How to subdivide? Mainly intervention, according to the situation of intervention, some will have two stages. Mainly depends on intervention, intervention and diagnosis.

If it is not particularly direct, it is a mixed symptom. For example, if you have a general fever, you should also treat your heart and spleen. Similar to poor team communication, this matter is not that simple. It's not as simple as giving everyone a communication lesson. There may be opaque communication information, personnel quality problems, organizational structure problems, wrong communication methods and unreasonable departmental processes.

If there are all these five questions, five diagnoses will be listed and five intervention plans will be formed. Through these five intervention plans, it will be divided into five secondary projects, which will be longer and may take two months to upgrade. If you give feedback, you will also give feedback through these five secondary projects.

For an individual, who is a champion, he finds himself lacking in motivation. This is what HRBP needs to pay attention to. It may only take three or five days to stimulate his personal enthusiasm, and it only takes three or five days to solve this problem.

OD has nothing fixed, so it is what it is, and you need to define it. People who do OD generally have modeling skills. General OD will need how to define this matter and design several dimensions. You won't be all right. There will be many tools to help you.

Teacher Ni's online course talks about 24 management modes. After learning it, you will be familiar with it. Then according to the actual needs, you can find which model is more suitable and use it. There is no need to build a new model. There are many models now.

Ni Yunhua: Some students asked what factors should be paid attention to in tissue diagnosis?

Bai Rui: I wrote a book, Tissue Diagnosis, which is one of the best sellers. Tissue diagnosis has three elements: model, method and process, model transformation and patchwork application.

I. Mode

This model solves the frame problem. How many dimensions does a * * * have? The 7S model has seven dimensions, the Yang Triangle has seven dimensions and 12 dimensions. Different models have different dimensions, which is related to the applicability of the model. It depends on whether the situation of our company is suitable for this and whether this model is related to our company.

There are 2 points on the model element:

1. Modeling needs to know the situation of our company, and modeling is a bit complicated.

2. Application and development model. Some people are obsessed with Alibaba's six boxes, so some people add a model, nest the model with the model, and apply the six boxes to other models in combination with the actual situation.

Second, the method, that is, how to use the model to realize things.

For example, questionnaires, interviews, and observations. Many research results in the past are experimental results obtained through observation. Secondly, the analysis method is adopted, because the salary problem is not established, so some analysis methods will be used to analyze some situations, and different methods will be used to realize it in combination with the actual situation.

Third, the process, similar to building blocks, is to do an interview or do research first.

The standard process is to hold a mobilization meeting with all the staff present. Sometimes, we skip this pep rally to see a doctor. Not all of them, but we can also send out questionnaires or do interviews first. This is the experience. Many people will talk to you during the interview. If you just do questionnaires, many people will have bad questionnaires, and ABC will fill them out randomly. There are 40 tampered data in 100, which is useless.

For example, voting, 100, with 40 abstentions, can't play. In some cases, an interview is more appropriate, such as asking a few more questions about what you think, so that you can talk about the results after a while.

For the model, the people in the company are mainly Ali's, so just import Ali's six boxes. If the company is a merger of Ali and Tencent, you need to build a model. You need to investigate first. Some people may be concerned about products and others about culture, so you need to do these things.

Ni Yunhua: The three problems mentioned by Mr. Bai are the key, which may include organizational problems, product problems and team problems. By solving these problems, we can improve organizational efficiency and promote company performance.

When an organization develops to a certain stage, it needs internal forces to drive the growth of the company's business. How to drive the growth of a mature company? An external investment is followed by the growth of the internal organization, which is why the company attaches importance to it.

Just now, Mr. Bai Rui talked about diagnosis, finding problems, seeing what problems exist, judging the reasons behind them, intervening in a systematic way, and finally giving feedback.

The first stage, the process of diagnosis, I recommend the book "Tissue Diagnosis" to everyone. We say that to solve the problem better, we must first find out the problem accurately and what is the factor behind the surface problem. Then Mr. Bai talked about the three core elements of organizational diagnosis, found the model, paid attention to the process based on personal thinking method, and diagnosed the problem with insight.

Many students will be curious when they hear models and tools. What model methods will we focus on, what is it like, how to use it, and how to play its mechanism well?

Bai Rui: To grasp the model, we must look at the method and process. Many people read books, without these associations and connections, and read a lot of books, which seem to understand, but in fact they don't fully understand.

For example, six boxes originated in the 1970s, when they were not particularly mature. At that time, Wesburd did not give a specific method. Later, books and papers came out and were gradually introduced after being translated into China.

Naked heart meeting, * * * meeting, publicly explain the company's value, organizational structure, division of labor, relationship, process, how much bonus is given, and whether the management and leaders have kept up. This logic becomes this process, six boxes, six elements, and six contents through * * * meeting.

BLM, originally called gap, market gap, enterprise gap and organizational gap, is used to analyze the gap between you and the best enterprises, gain market insight, organize cultural talents to keep up, and finally form a report. Like market insight into strategic intentions, this is difficult to develop in the form of questionnaires. BLM, analytically combined with 12 dimension, was disassembled step by step.

Yang Triangle is a complete questionnaire, just fill it out. Questionnaire and interview are the main methods. The questionnaire is followed by an interview, and the results are automatic. The comprehensive interview results can form a report. Several commonly used tools have corresponding methods.

There are only more than 50 people in our company, from all directions, everywhere and with different values. How can we come? We can't go directly to the questionnaire. This method is not suitable.

Like BLM, we don't care that you come from all corners of the country, we just look for value orientation and organizational positioning. Our company mainly sells, that is, more than a dozen sales departments. Then we discussed it this way. We made a trip first and gave it a try. We found that both the second business department and the third business department were staring at the goal of1.800 million, so we made a comparison.

The latter method and process support the former model, and your relationship and process should be smooth. What resources do you need to pay at this time will come out.

By combining your methods and processes to understand this model, you can apply it to your scenario.

Ni Yunhua: These are typical management tools and models mentioned by Mr. Bai Rui, which help us to look at a company and find its problems. You have done many projects. Can you share a case briefly?

Bai Rui: We have done many projects, and many enterprises also want to make a model, but the model has been occupied by major enterprises. Ali's six boxes are basically occupied. Let's judge its attributes. There are still many companies just learning from Huawei, especially technology companies. They have a thorough understanding of Huawei's things.

A national chain enterprise in Hunan, with annual sales of 1 100 million yuan, wants to go public. In the seventh year of its establishment, the director of human resources came to us and said that their marketing was good, but their management was poor. The boss also said that our management is streaking, and there is almost no management, that is, notification, a bunch of notifications, and notification of decisions. This human resource goal is very clear, and the company should improve its organization. They know this thing and want to make it.

How to make these things in this company with nothing? On the one hand, solve the problem, on the other hand, build the architecture. They want to make a comprehensive model, build a framework, set up a framework, and then there are growth strategies and growth needs.

I said that if we comprehensively set posts, set people's performance and set up a complete structure, then there will be many people in need, and the listing is mainly financial listing. Looking at the financial indicators, these years will be very bitter. Generally speaking, we have money to spend after listing, but it is very bitter before listing.

Therefore, we can make a small content first, starting with the salary, and take out a part of the salary increase budget to make everyone more confident about the next change. Shang Yang went to Qin in the same way. First, a piece of wood was set up in the south gate, and 50 gold was awarded for carrying it back to the north gate. He promoted great reform with small actions.

The next step is human resources planning, so that we can work out a good plan, what future generations will look like in three to five years, and then go to the company to patrol and let everyone know that people can also make plans.

The first is the planning of core talents. The core talents will say that after so many years in the company, I feel that the company cares about me for the first time. But many people have not been told. What are the core standards and definitions? How much you have to accomplish is the core. For Huawei, glory is very important, emphasizing the struggler-oriented, and giving people in the hardest places the highest honor and reward.

In the third year, I began to build this structure. We didn't plan by region. For example, if you are from Hunan, it is the structure of Hunan Province. This is a provincial system. The administrative system has brought great influence, but we still have to examine this thing. The local economy has a great influence on the division. Many places, such as western Guangdong and eastern Guangxi, are not very rich.

For example, if the company is located in Shenzhen, not all provinces in Guangdong Province play the same game. Later, a McKinsey economic decomposition diagram was produced, which was very good. In this picture, Nanjing is not divided into the Yangtze River Delta, and Nanjing is not as good as Suzhou and Hangzhou economically.

Guangdong is divided into eastern Guangdong and western Guangdong, and western Guangdong is divided into Hainan. This thing looks very good after it is brought here. Divided by non-administrative regions. Poor markets have poor ways of playing, and rich places have rich ways of playing. Different advertising fees, different resources and different organizational systems. The two lakes are Wuhan and Changsha, and the organizational structure is divided from this perspective. That's it. It's almost over.

Reform is to divide the cake again. From a small place, starting from everyone's interests, let some people get rich first, give these people a little salary, and then move the knife to reform. Small actions have produced great kinetic energy. The second edition has been adjusted for three years, with an average annual growth of about 20% in three years. The report is very beautiful. It was listed in the tenth year of its establishment. This project has been going on for three years, and it is not a permanent project. I go occasionally, and I don't need to insist all the time.

Ni Yunhua: From actual cases, we can see that all these projects need to be promoted from organization to business. It will take some time for the promotion of these projects to see certain effects. The field of OD is a topic that any organization needs to pay attention to.

Some students asked, what should I do if I just want to work in OD as an individual in the future?

Bai Rui: From the interview. All OD's will ask, what projects have you done? This is simple, but difficult to answer. Simple questions are often difficult to answer. But if the interviewer asks this question, it means that the person being asked is also very professional.

To answer this question, you need to make some preparations and make use of every opportunity to do writing projects in the company. You have to set up a project first, and then you will get something. It is difficult to establish a project, because many times you will do some routine work, but you should seize every opportunity to do something, and many times you have the opportunity to do the work of tissue diagnosis.

If it is difficult to make an organizational diagnosis of the company, then work as a team. We said that more than a dozen people in the R&D department can't be without problems, and this team can't be without problems. Another project that can do talents, such as talent inventory. If you want to be OD, try to reach out to the organization.

When an organization has a project, it can undertake it, reduce costs and increase efficiency, and transform the organization. You can give yourself a try and increase a lot of project experience. Nowadays, many recruitment websites have project experience, which used to be listed for programmers, and now it is also given to OD. The most demanding project is 10, not 10. Can have 6 or 7 project experiences. This is the first step.

Step two, you say you have organizational experience, then you will be asked, how did you do it? I want to ask you, how did you do it? Then I'll ask you another question and give another example. May ask you, have you done any organizational design projects? This suggestion is answered honestly. If you haven't done it, it will be unprofessional.

We can start with the organization's strategy, management level, management scope and process. Experience is very, very important. First turn yourself into an OD-thinking person, then answer these three questions, and then you will be found by headhunters and searched by hunters. People in these positions are scarce, and they are all general managers or vice presidents during the assessment.

When starting to transfer jobs, don't care about the size of the position, start with OD manager first, and then pry the threshold of OD director. Even if you used to be HRD, it's not easy for you to pry into Director OD as soon as you come up. System ability is accumulated through study, class and reading. Make clear the core point first, what can you do, how to do it and what you can do.

Student Jing Wong: What are the core indicators for evaluating OD?

Bai Rui: It's hard to talk about evaluation. This is the same as a project. Focusing on large and overall efficiency growth, large companies and good companies will be able to effectively evaluate dashboards. This, like a project-based team, mainly depends on cost performance.

Wendy: A 9-year-old company, from scratch to listing, is expected to take several years, and generally requires several processes.

Bai Rui: This question is very extensive. For example, it takes eight years for Lei Jun to start a business, and only three years for Pinduoduo. From the perspective of OD, it mainly depends on whether the organizational structure is already a division system, whether there are many resources and whether there are many profits. To answer this question, we can look at the organizational chart of listed companies in turn.

Listing is mainly financial listing, mainly profit, and individual companies have insufficient profits. It is impossible to do only one thing. Secondly, expand the product line to the division system, such as super-cattle enterprises, such as China Resources, which has six listed companies. This is the super-division system.

First, analyze the organization with straight-line functions, who is the main body of listing, have a clear governance structure, and separate unnecessary business units. From an organizational point of view, it takes 2-3 steps. This is just an organizational point of view. From other angles, there are many points.

Teacher Ni: Listing is mainly a financial requirement, and the situation is different in different sectors. Wendy is a new energy industry, but first of all, her financial situation in recent years should meet the standards of listed companies.

On the topic of OD, if you ask any HR partner, they will shine at the moment. This is a very important position in the human resources field. OD needs a lot of knowledge reserves, which can solve problems, manage projects, enhance organizational vitality and bring business growth.

Teacher Bai talked about many models and methods, which are actually in our courses. We give 24 management tools and methods, including, Yang Triangle and six boxes.

Learn these models first and then OD. Including me, we use such tools to enter the company and solve problems. Ali made good use of these six boxes. These are the management methods and modes that we often use, and each of them has a deep understanding.

The content of the article is compiled and shared by: entrepreneurial student-Nak.